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Reselling tickets Options
mpember
Posted: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:34:50 PM

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-22/nsw-government-proposes-bill-to-control-online-ticket-reselling/5111900

With the 'official' BF forum being closed until all tickets are sold out (regardless of ticket type), the risk of unused tickets burning a hole in the pockets of people who are no longer able to attend may be increased by new laws being proposed in NSW.
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Friday, November 22, 2013 10:53:31 PM
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mpember wrote:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-22/nsw-government-proposes-bill-to-control-online-ticket-reselling/5111900

With the 'official' BF forum being closed until all tickets are sold out (regardless of ticket type), the risk of unused tickets burning a hole in the pockets of people who are no longer able to attend may be increased by new laws being proposed in NSW.


In my opinion Mr Allardice is a brute capitalist and deserved to be fined $7000 not $700.
If a person does not want such a ticket,it should be listed for sale at a socialist price not a brute capitalist price.
In my lifetime,the western world has become more selfish and greedy.
Ebay and other such outlets should be prohibited from providing the means for such a disposal,and also fined $7000.
That would solve the problem.
Bring back the birch.Pray

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
greybeard
Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2013 1:11:07 AM

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TheLoneRanger wrote:


In my opinion Mr Allardice is a brute capitalist and deserved to be fined $7000 not $700.
If a person does not want such a ticket,it should be listed for sale at a socialist price not a brute capitalist price.
In my lifetime,the western world has become more selfish and greedy.
Ebay and other such outlets should be prohibited from providing the means for such a disposal,and also fined $7000.
That would solve the problem.
Bring back the birch.Pray


We now have the reason that our Kiwi brethren's economy is so lack lustre. Professional scalping is a cancer to the ordinary bloke, but if your have an unexpected spare then having a fan display how much they are prepared to pay is as good as any to ensuring the ticket goes to a diehard, not some half interested yobo who will talk through the performance.

Heading out for the East Coast / Lord knows I've paid some dues gettin' through, / Tangled up in blues.
mpember
Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:58:12 AM

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TheLoneRanger wrote:
Ebay and other such outlets should be prohibited from providing the means for such a disposal,and also fined $7000.


Does this mean that you would require anyone with an unusable ticket to simply give up on making their money back? Many festivals now offer "ticket exchanges" that remove the opportunity for the seller to profit from the exchange. It also provides the buyer with the protection of knowing that they are buying a real ticket from a real seller. Would you consider this option acceptable?
regards
Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2013 6:41:15 PM
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Sounds like a sensible idea, to have a ticket exchange.


Reslling a ticket at your original purchase price is fair and should be allowed.

And I would like to hear a decent reason, as to why it should not.
timcook123
Posted: Monday, November 25, 2013 9:31:22 AM

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mpember wrote:
TheLoneRanger wrote:
Ebay and other such outlets should be prohibited from providing the means for such a disposal,and also fined $7000.


Does this mean that you would require anyone with an unusable ticket to simply give up on making their money back? Many festivals now offer "ticket exchanges" that remove the opportunity for the seller to profit from the exchange. It also provides the buyer with the protection of knowing that they are buying a real ticket from a real seller. Would you consider this option acceptable?


I think thats reasonable!

When you're lost in the rain in Juarez
And it's Eastertime too
And your gravity fails
And negativity don't pull you through
Don't put on any airs
When you're down on Rue Morgue Avenue
They got some hungry women there
And they really make a mess outta you.

B. Dylan
bluesfestadmin
Posted: Monday, November 25, 2013 1:01:40 PM
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Hi,

once bluesfest is sold out - we open our ticket resale section.

it was opened in 2011 - but not in 2012 and 2013.

thanks

bboard admin
mpember
Posted: Monday, November 25, 2013 8:51:32 PM

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bluesfestadmin wrote:
once bluesfest is sold out - we open our ticket resale section.


Which makes it possible that people with 5 day tickets are forced to use alternative means for selling their ticket simply because there are a couple of 1 day tickets left unsold.

With the stories of many people being fooled by someone selling false tickets last year, it would be great to see an officially endorsed option.

Hopefully the anti-scalping laws are worded such that people who have no alternative but to sell the ticket online are not going to have the police knocking on their door.
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Monday, November 25, 2013 9:17:25 PM
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mpember wrote:
bluesfestadmin wrote:
once bluesfest is sold out - we open our ticket resale section.


Which makes it possible that people with 5 day tickets are forced to use alternative means for selling their ticket simply because there are a couple of 1 day tickets left unsold.

With the stories of many people being fooled by someone selling false tickets last year, it would be great to see an officially endorsed option.

Hopefully the anti-scalping laws are worded such that people who have no alternative but to sell the ticket online are not going to have the police knocking on their door.



http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2007/0035/latest/DLM413069.html

The template has already been created by legislators.
The simple solution is to expand its coverage to encompass all ticketed events.
That will mean that brute capitalists trying to make profits from those who have missed out on event tickets,will be liable for prosecution.
I also have no hesitation in bring such persons to the attention of IRD,or the ATO in your case.

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
mpember
Posted: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 12:26:57 AM

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TheLoneRanger wrote:
The template has already been created by legislators.


Rather than discussing a NZ law that you admit does not cover events such as BF, let's look at the details of the law being planned for NSW.

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/About_us/News_and_events/Media_releases/2013_media_releases/20131002_nsw_gov_tackles_ticket_scalping.page
Quote:
Any advertisement (or similar communication) for resale to the public must include:
- A clear and legible image of the ticket, showing the ticket number, row and seat number but with the barcode obscured (so it can’t be copied);
- Details of the terms and conditions of sale of the ticket, or details of where to find them (for example, on a website); and
- Notice of any condition which allows the ticket to be cancelled if it is resold in breach of its terms and conditions. If a ticket to a NSW event is subject to a condition allowing it to be cancelled, the ticket will need to have a warning on the front.


The third point is the killer. The BF T&C state:
Quote:
All bookings and ticket purchases are non-transferable and may not be sold or transferred by you.


IANAL, but it looks like the proposed NSW law allows an event to place a blanket ban on any sale, regardless of price. With BF placing such a catch-all condition, it appears that the proposed law would make it illegal for anyone who 'sells' their ticket for any price.

About the only thing that would keep people from falling foul of the law would be some sort of handshake agreement by BF not to impose the condition. While this is possible, it is not the best way for laws to be written or enforced.

The press release goes on to state:
Quote:
Mr Roberts said the proposed requirements will not apply if a ticket is sold through a resale system that has been publicly authorised in writing (for example, on a ticket or website) by the event owner.


Which suggests that he recommends the use of 'ticket exchange' systems. And until the identification requirements of the BF forum are made a bit more strict, even the 'we may open it if we feel like it' forum falls short of providing protection for either buyer or seller.
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:18:48 AM
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Which suggests that he recommends the use of 'ticket exchange' systems. And until the identification requirements of the BF forum are made a bit more strict, even the 'we may open it if we feel like it' forum falls short of providing protection for either buyer or seller.[/quote]

If the Au authorities in their wisdom do not wish to follow the NZ template,as a non Au citizen,I am powerless to lobby against them.
You as an Au citizen have that power.
I am a political activist in this country in my field of work,and find that I am able to be listened to at national level.
That legislation covering Major Events,can quite clearly be expanded to cover events such as Bluesfest.

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:43:42 AM
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Given that you are not attending Bluesfest 2014 and do not therefore possess a ticket,I will read you what it says on the back of my 2014 Bluesfest ticket.
I quote "This ticket is not for resale or transferable under any circumstances."
That appears to be remarkably similar to your "killer" third point.
So what is new ?

My viewpoint is that if you purchase a ticket to Bluesfest,and something really drastic occurs,then it is no different than buying a ticket to any other ticketed event.
You purchase at your own risk and if for some reason you cannot attend,there is no point being a cry baby.
In 2012 I had an extra ticket,offered it for free to a workmate who decided not to go,then on sold it for purchase price to another person from this province whom I met in person.
It is not only event tickets which are an issue in such circumstances.
There are also prepaid airfares and accommodation to consider.

As I have noted previously on this forum,scamming on websites such as Ebay is not limited to Bluesfest tickets.

Could I also mention that attendees also have the option of purchasing tickets from the Bluesfest Management at the previous year's event.
The early bird catches the worm.
It is a no brainer to pay $320 for a 5 day ticket at such a time.
If you delay,you will pay considerably more from the Bluesfest site at present.
If you wish to purchase from Ebay etc,you need to be prepared to accept the risk of being scammed.

As I have detailed previously on this forum,if you have any issue with a scam through Ebay,talking to them is of no more use than talking to your cat.
The police provide the only solution.




"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
mpember
Posted: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 10:08:42 PM

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TheLoneRanger wrote:
So what is new?

What is new is that this will no longer be a civil contractual matter and will now be enforceable under NSW law.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
it is no different than buying a ticket to any other ticketed event.

Unless that 'other ticketed event' is one that does offer an official method for the resale of tickets.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
You purchase at your own risk and if for some reason you cannot attend,there is no point being a cry baby.

I'm glad that you are in such a position that nothing will ever stop you from attending bluesfest. Not all of us are so lucky. If not for pure luck, I wouldn't have been able to attend last year's event. It was only chance that meant that the seizure which resulted in me having my drivers license suspended for 6 months occurred just after BF.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
In 2012 I had an extra ticket,offered it for free to a workmate who decided not to go,then on sold it for purchase price to another person from this province whom I met in person.

Hopefully you reported this to BF management at your earliest convenience and asked them to cancel the ticket. It would have been the only acceptable action. Or do the rules not apply to you?

TheLoneRanger wrote:
As I have noted previously on this forum,scamming on websites such as Ebay is not limited to Bluesfest tickets.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this. At no point have I offered up ebay as the best option. The best option if for BF to offer an endorsed and protected method for sellers to be put in touch with buyers. I am not suggesting that BF take on any risk in the transaction. They don't need to buy back unused tickets. They could even charge a 'handling' fee and increase their revenue.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
Could I also mention that attendees also have the option of purchasing tickets from the Bluesfest Management at the previous year's event.

I don't see how this changes the situation. In fact, it would work in BF's favour to offer an exchange where the buyer pays the current price and the seller only gets back their purchase price.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
If you wish to purchase from Ebay etc,you need to be prepared to accept the risk of being scammed.

Again I repeat that I in no way recommend eBay. But with BF taking their position of making it hard for people, desperate people will do desperate things.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
The police provide the only solution.

Not much of a solution if the police will be asked to use the new laws against legit sellers as well as scammers.
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:46:31 PM
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AAA
At present,Bluesfest will agree to the transfer of E Tickets between a willing buyer/willing seller.
That clearly is at the discretion of Bluesfest as it conflicts with the clause on the back of a ticket.
The only possible reason for that is that Bluesfest accepts that there are a limiited number of unforseen circumstances which lead to such a transaction being negotiated.
I do not believe that the proposed legislation will result in Bluesfest changing its policy in this regard.
BBB
The proposed legislation attacks scalping and fraud,nothing else.
Provided the seller has complied with the provisions of the proposed legislation,no offence will have occurred.
It therefore will not invalidate a transaction as occurs at present under AAA.
CCC
If certain entities wish to offer a rebuy and resell system,that is at their discretion.
Bluesfest supports willing buyers/willing sellers who wish to transfer under AAA.
I see no reason why Bluesfest should introduce a rebuy and resell system.
DDD
If I purchase a concert ticket to a show by Bruce Springsteen or Leonard Cohen,I do not expect Ticketmaster or Ticketek to repurchase my ticket if I decide not to attend.
I see no reason why they should do so.
EEE
I do not know whether anything will ever stop me attending Bluesfest.
I cannot predict the future.
But I minimise financial risk by purchasing a 5 day ticket at the previous years festival.
FFF
You have made it quite clear that yourself and your 10 mates used to attend Bluesfest as a boys week away.
You have made it quite clear that you will not be attending Bluesfest 2014.
You and your mates lives have evolved,you are now 30 years of age not 20 years of age,which means your lives will have evolved in other directions with other responsibilities.
You live in Melbourne which is the best place for live music downunder,and you have Bluesfest sideshows.
That means there is little incentive for you to attend Bluesfest.
A drivers licence is not a necessary requisite to attend Bluesfest.
I did not obtain a drivers licence until age 26,but there has in my lifetime always been public transport available.
I know a person my own age who does not drive but has attended music events all over the world,as he is in the media sector.
A have a close friend who obtained his drivers licence in his 50's yet that has no inhibited him travelling all over the world.
GGG
It is quite clear by their conduct that Bluesfest have no issue in my handing on my surplus 2012 ticket to another attendee.
I did not scalp or committ fraud,and therefore did not contravene current Bluesfest policy or the proposed legislation.
It is unfortunate that my then workmate did not attend,given that he is a musican and through attending could have gained a musical education which would have expanded his[and by him passing on his experiences] and the narrow window that the majority of musicans in this part of the country,operate through.
HHH
As I have stated,I disagree with you that Bluesfest should offer a rebuy system.
The proposed legislation does not require promoters to offer a rebuy system.
You will not win.
III
Purchasing a ticket from the Bluesfest site means no risk of fraud,and means you will not be scapled.
JJJ
The proposed legislation will not prohibit ticket resale on other sites provided that there is no scalping and no fraud.
KKK
If there is scapling or fraud,the enforcement agency specified under the legislation,must be involved.
There is no other option,and indeed this is correct.
LLL
I am perplexed with your statement that legitimate sellers will be subject to attention from the enforcement agency.
Sellers who wish to be legitimate must comply with the legislation.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
This does not differ from compliance with any other legislation in force in your country.

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
bambambam
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 6:45:03 AM
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Excellent conversation,

The whole argument rests on the fact that a person wants his money back for something he brought.
There are things in this world that you can return for a full refund, and other things that you can't.
If I could not attend the festival, I would give my ticket to my friends or family
knowing that they would have a great time.

I have seen that done a lot when it comes to concerts.



Write a wise saying and your name will live on forever,,, Anonymous
mpember
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:35:01 PM

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TheLoneRanger wrote:
At present,Bluesfest will agree to the transfer of E Tickets between a willing buyer/willing seller.
That clearly is at the discretion of Bluesfest as it conflicts with the clause on the back of a ticket.

So it all comes down to blind faith that the NSW authorities will let it slide. If you are so confident that BF will allow this, then why not encourage them to include such a provision on the terms and conditions?

TheLoneRanger wrote:
The proposed legislation attacks scalping and fraud,nothing else.
Provided the seller has complied with the provisions of the proposed legislation,no offence will have occurred.
It therefore will not invalidate a transaction as occurs at present under AAA.

You must have access to some copy of the law other than the one I have read. Or are you using your faith again?

TheLoneRanger wrote:
If I purchase a concert ticket to a show by Bruce Springsteen or Leonard Cohen,I do not expect Ticketmaster or Ticketek to repurchase my ticket if I decide not to attend.
I see no reason why they should do so.

At no point have I ever suggested that BF repurchase or refund tickets.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
You have made it quite clear that yourself and your 10 mates used to attend Bluesfest as a boys week away.

That's news to me. It would also be news to the family that I attended with.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
A drivers licence is not a necessary requisite to attend Bluesfest.

I never said it was. But the lack of a drivers license for 6 months put a major dent in my income. The money spent attending BF is not as simply as buying a ticket and turning up.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
I did not scalp or committ[sic] fraud,and therefore did not contravene current Bluesfest policy or the proposed legislation.

As long as BF have a condition that bans the transfer of tickets, your actions are against the T&C. Since the T&C are given more weight by the proposed laws, it is up to the office enforcing the laws and not BF as to what it allowed to slip through.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
As I have stated,I disagree with you

I gave up on influencing your opinion a long time ago.
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Friday, December 06, 2013 7:55:02 PM
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In my opinion Mr Allardice is a fool.
I quote "As he lines up to pay his $722 fine,Mr Allardice says by not having a fair way of offloading surplus tickets on a secondary market,it will be the event owners and ticket agencies themselves who will be able to scalp punters desperate for tickets to the big events."
Mr Allardice completely misses the point.
His comments are simply embarassing.
He had a spare ticket to an Aussie Rules game.
He had no part in the organisation or management of that game,thus had taken no business risk.
Yet he deliberately chose not to resell that ticket at face value,which was the acceptable solution,but instead used a public forum to attempt to make a pecuniary gain for his own benefit by auctioning it to the highest bidder.
That is brute capitalism for which he deserves to be punished.
If the event owners choose to price the tickets at certain levels due to perceived demand,that is their right to do so.
It is they who are taking the business risk,not profiteers such as Mr Allardice.

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:13:26 PM
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mpember wrote:
TheLoneRanger wrote:
At present,Bluesfest will agree to the transfer of E Tickets between a willing buyer/willing seller.
That clearly is at the discretion of Bluesfest as it conflicts with the clause on the back of a ticket.

So it all comes down to blind faith that the NSW authorities will let it slide. If you are so confident that BF will allow this, then why not encourage them to include such a provision on the terms and conditions?

TheLoneRanger wrote:
The proposed legislation attacks scalping and fraud,nothing else.
Provided the seller has complied with the provisions of the proposed legislation,no offence will have occurred.
It therefore will not invalidate a transaction as occurs at present under AAA.

You must have access to some copy of the law other than the one I have read. Or are you using your faith again?

TheLoneRanger wrote:
If I purchase a concert ticket to a show by Bruce Springsteen or Leonard Cohen,I do not expect Ticketmaster or Ticketek to repurchase my ticket if I decide not to attend.
I see no reason why they should do so.

At no point have I ever suggested that BF repurchase or refund tickets.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
You have made it quite clear that yourself and your 10 mates used to attend Bluesfest as a boys week away.

That's news to me. It would also be news to the family that I attended with.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
A drivers licence is not a necessary requisite to attend Bluesfest.

I never said it was. But the lack of a drivers license for 6 months put a major dent in my income. The money spent attending BF is not as simply as buying a ticket and turning up.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
I did not scalp or committ[sic] fraud,and therefore did not contravene current Bluesfest policy or the proposed legislation.

As long as BF have a condition that bans the transfer of tickets, your actions are against the T&C. Since the T&C are given more weight by the proposed laws, it is up to the office enforcing the laws and not BF as to what it allowed to slip through.

TheLoneRanger wrote:
As I have stated,I disagree with you

I gave up on influencing your opinion a long time ago.


I suggest you familiarise yourself with the first print of the New South Wales Government Fair Trading Amendment [Ticket Reselling] Bill 2013
If you require assistance with interpretation,please advise.

There is no necessity for Bluesfest to amend the conditions to which their tickets are sold.
The first print compliments their existing policy.

Similarly,there is no necessity for Bluesfest to depart from its present policy of goodwill in regard to the transfer of E tickets.

If the reselling of tickets complies with the Bill as introduced into Parliament,no offence has been committed,thus there is no possible complaint and police intervention.
You comment in regard to "Blind Faith" underlines your lack of understanding in regard to the Bill.

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:16:12 PM
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mpember wrote:
bluesfestadmin wrote:
once bluesfest is sold out - we open our ticket resale section.


Which makes it possible that people with 5 day tickets are forced to use alternative means for selling their ticket simply because there are a couple of 1 day tickets left unsold.

With the stories of many people being fooled by someone selling false tickets last year, it would be great to see an officially endorsed option.

Hopefully the anti-scalping laws are worded such that people who have no alternative but to sell the ticket online are not going to have the police knocking on their door.


Umm I thought you were intimately familiar with the legislation.....

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
TheLoneRanger
Posted: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:20:40 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 10/19/2008
Posts: 3,859
Points: 9,360
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bambambam wrote:
Excellent conversation,

The whole argument rests on the fact that a person wants his money back for something he brought.
There are things in this world that you can return for a full refund, and other things that you can't.
If I could not attend the festival, I would give my ticket to my friends or family
knowing that they would have a great time.

I have seen that done a lot when it comes to concerts.



Unfortunately we are living in an increasingly greedy selfish society.
So people get onto a site where tickets are sold,and in a large proportion of cases,cannot resist the oportunity to auction them.
That is making money out of the misfortune of others.

"An artist never really chooses when and where they will play.It is for promoters to make offers.It comes down as to whether tours are financially viable." Quote John Mayall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEHzqildp8
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