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Filming during performances Options
colinsid
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:04:52 PM
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I am starting a couple of forums on my pet hates at Bluesfest, see my other one on chairs.

In the last couple of years & at an increasing rate there are people video filming the concerts with normal cameras & camera phones for personal use or posting on Utube.

Now I do sometimes take photos but I take my camera out of my pocket, snap a few quick shots, put it away then get on with what I am there for which is enjoying the music.

But now we have people standing in one spot holding cameras up at head height & filming whole songs & sets, which under ticket conditions is illegal.

My problems with these people is that hold the camera up next to there face they are blocking peoples view & also that they get very upset & sometimes abusive when they have to move or let people pass. (Talking to them while they film pees them off as well, highly recommended).

Live for the moment not a film of the the moment. That is what live music is about otherwise rent a music DVD.
curlyloc
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 2:07:26 PM
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I know what you mean BUT there is a middle ground here (just like the chairs...actually they should be "back" ground)...

Gerard - please respond on behalf of those who love your discreet footage



Buddy Guy is without doubt the best guitar player alive.......the way he plays is beyond anyone. Amen
colinsid
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 2:51:34 PM
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Heres the ticketing condition from the website:
Audio and Visual
17. Audio or visual recordings of the Event are prohibited. Still cameras (not professional) are permitted but images may only be used for private purposes and not public display. By attending the Event, You consent to being included in any film and/or sound recordings of the Event that may take place and agree for these recordings to be used by the Event organiser.

Just because they may look good on the net does not make it right.

I can understand there is a middle ground with the chairs being restricted to a certain area, but it needs to be policed. But I don't think there is a similar middle ground on this topic as it against the rules, so you don't have any right to think you can stand for a whole song blocking someones view & being abusive whilst you film.
curlyloc
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 3:12:00 PM
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Perhaps this thread is a good argument for why we need professional footage to purchase afterwards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRBvX1mQBw

And for what its worth, Gerard's stuff doesn't go on the net, nor does he block anyone or abuse them

Buddy Guy is without doubt the best guitar player alive.......the way he plays is beyond anyone. Amen
RaucousReg
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 3:21:01 PM

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colinsid wrote:
Heres the ticketing condition from the website:
Audio and Visual
17. By attending the Event, You consent to being included in any film and/or sound recordings of the Event that may take place and agree for these recordings to be used by the Event organiser.


Gotta hate that! LOL

Two years BF used a photo which included me AND it's been used in at least two other media promotions in Byron that I know of!

namaste
RR
RaucousReg
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 3:25:13 PM

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Read recently where pholk entering a concert/ festival somewhere in the US were asked if they had recording equipment while being watched on some sophisticated equipment which detected the liars among the "No" respondents. Of course I've long held that mobile phones should be banned at BF- perhaps it's time organisers enforced their own rules!

namaste
RR
littlewillie
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 3:55:07 PM
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You're on the money there Reg. Mobile phones are definately the most annoying thing at bluesfest and I for one would be happy to see mobile phone sniffer dogs at the entry points to the festival. Maybe even a small mobile crusher to destroy the contraband would help enforce the gravity of the situation. Batons or tazers could also work.
Or at least a signal blocker in the festival area.Seriously!

Peace and love
puki77
Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:14:55 PM
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I've been attending for 5 years and I've got to say that I'm really grateful for some of the footage that has appeared on youtube. I love checking it out after the event and looking back on it all. Granted, the quality isn't always the best, but I am yet to get off my arse and record something cool for the sheer love of music.
I'm not much taller than 5 foot and I've never encountered a problem with filmers and vice versa. If they weren't mutually respectful then I'd just ignore them anyway. Film on good people!

The idea of many, many less phones is appealing, though I don't think much can be done besides helping people to develop a social conscience. That can't be too hard, seeing as even the late night garden chair punters can quickly take a hint.
waffles
Posted: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:17:25 AM
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filming on mobiles is usually crap and i dont know why people post crappy stuff on youtube.

in saying that i love the good quality stuff that brings back the great moments. youtube can be a great way for unknown artists to get exposure.

this particular artist from bluesfest 2010. previously unknown to me,just blew me away when i saw her,made a point of seeing her again and told others to look out for her.

i checked her out on youtube and bought her cd. -which is great -WHITE SUGAR-JOANNA SHAW TAYLOR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULmvPgtYErU

be great to see her again sometime.ithink she has a new cd out now.

this is a music festival-im not so sure about all the rules and regulations.

I don't want to hang up my rock n roll shoes
I get a good time feeling every time I hear those blues.
shadowfax1007
Posted: Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:50:41 PM
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I will add this to the discussion: the abundance of people filming with their mobile phones would lessen if audio/video recording was openly permitted.
Let me explain.

There is a niche of people around the world, who invest their time and money into recording equipment to document live events. However (especially in Australia) they are more often then not forced to smuggle in their gear, record in less than ideal situations, and run the risk of being caught and kicked out. Even if the band permits recording, lots of venues will still eject you. It's frustrating to say the least. A lot of venues sell 'taper tickets' to gigs, where people can bring their rigs and record the show. Even if they don't sell taper tickets, a lot of venues still permit recording gear, providing you do not ruin other peoples experience (giant stands set up in the front row for example). A lot of US festivals also allow you to come in, set up your stand at/around the soundboard, and go enjoy the gig.

Australia is so incredibly backwards when it comes to audio/video at concerts, its not funny. A prime example would be the band Linkin Park. The band was always openly ok with people taping, however Warner wasnt so within recent years, they have begun taping every show (excluding VIP events, tv specials, etc) and releasing them on their website for $10, or free with your ticket. They taped the whole Aus/NZ tour, but Warner Australia refused to let them release the tour, because they felt it would damage album sales. When I spoke with them, even the band and their sound engineers disagreed with Warner's decision. It took 3 years of fighting with Warner Australia from a whole group of angry fans to get those recordings released.

If people could go to a concert and know before hand that a high quality recording, be it audio or video, would be made available after the show, I'm sure many people would leave their camera's at home or in their pockets. This would result in less people holding up their phones, and then abusing other people who try to slip past them.

Bands/Venues/Festivals/Promoters etc need to decide. Either allow people to tape OR release pro audio/video to the public if you won't let them record. I know many sound and video engineers who are hired to record gigs, but the shows never see the light of day because of business politics. I know I asked Bluesfest last year for permission to bring recording gear, but was denied for various reasons (protecting copyright, artist rights, profits etc), yet I saw whole pro video teams set up on the main stage, and all that got released after the festival was a bunch of 30 - 60 second clips of various bands. What a waste of time and money employing those crews - not to mention I left my gear at home, so now the only taper recordings I can find are of Matisyahu, Rodriguez and Jeff Beck.

Also @colinsid in response to "Talking to them while they film pees them off as well, highly recommended" - you don't just ruin someone's recording, you're ruining the concert anyway. There is nothing worse then idiots who talk through whole gigs, or who are just their to get drunk and piss people off. When I pay $500+ for a 5 day festival, I don't enjoy having someone yapping in my ear. I know your comment was more so directed to the amateurs with mobile phones, but when I'm at a gig where im allowed to set up my mics and gear, I hate when people walk up and deliberately talk in front of the microphones to ruin recordings. I do agree with you though, it is annoying when someone is holding up their phone in front of you, but generally its only for a minute or two, I don't know anyone whos arm could hold up in the air more than a few minutes without getting sore and tired.

Anyway, I'll tie up my rant. Just think of the positives of open taping (increased band exposure, relive memories etc). Taping doesn't effect album sales, it's a fun hobby and fans can relive gigs forever. Camera's at gigs is a MINOR problem in comparison to the out of control drunks, drug use, fights and non-stop talkers. Hell I saw people with bottles of wine and spirits in the crowd last year - get security onto that instead.
izzy965
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2010 10:29:41 AM
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There's alot said for letting ppl record for themselves. look at hendrix live shows he let ppl rock on up with their tape machines and record. it captures a raw live performance that isnt some polished piece of crap coming out of a sterile digital studio.
colinsid
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2010 10:51:15 AM
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What is wrong with peoples memories these days that you can't just go & enjoy it for the moment & use that thing in your head called a brain to remember the show, or if like me not remember but at least remember that you enjoyed youself. This could also include the photos that I sometimes take as for years I didn't take a camera & I am none the poorer for it.

To say that attending a gig gives you some sort of percieved right to record it, when the venue rules state otherwise is a ridiculous notion. Unfortunately both are an age &/or cultural thing, nowdays because people have a mobile or a recording device & U-tube as a forum, they feel that this gives them right to use them anywhere & everywhere.

I was suggested talking all the way through the gig but just long or loud enough for the people holding up camera's & phones, blocking peoples views or getting annoyed because you walk in front of them, to stop. They are blocking peoples view for there own selfishness.

I was going to mention the mobiles as well when I originally posted this, as it is also a problem & is covered by others in this forum.

The drunk & disorderly thing is a seperate item & should be dealt with as such.

I will say it again. "Live for the moment, not a film of the the moment. That is what live music is about otherwise rent a music DVD."
richo
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:05:06 PM
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I've never been fussed about people getting their cameras or phones out and videoing or whatever. Yeah, it might a shame that they're distracting themselves from the music like that, but it's rarely bothered me when they're doing it near me. Can't recall ever having my view blocked by someone's camera up in front of me.

I never get why Australian festivals seem to have these blanket bans on taping or whatever. So many bands freely allow it and festivals overseas typically allow individual artists to dictate whether there's a particular policy in place for their performance. Last year at Rothbury Festival in the States I was amazed at some of the insane recording setups some of the Deadheads had with them. And at the same time when Bob Dylan played the next day after The Dead, security enforced his blanket ban on photos/video/etc.

The wealth of concert footage on Youtube is surely enough justification for it... I mean there's a lot of crap on there, but there's a whole lot of really special moments of live music captured and archived for all to see.


izzy965 wrote:
look at hendrix live shows he let ppl rock on up with their tape machines and record.

The man was evidently quite a proponent of bootlegging: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtcAwzBr0c8

(might be hard to make out but that's Hendrix in the front row of a Buddy Guy show with a tape recorder)
shadowfax1007
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2010 6:37:02 PM
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richo wrote:
I've never been fussed about people getting their cameras or phones out and videoing or whatever. Yeah, it might a shame that they're distracting themselves from the music like that, but it's rarely bothered me when they're doing it near me. Can't recall ever having my view blocked by someone's camera up in front of me.

I never get why Australian festivals seem to have these blanket bans on taping or whatever. So many bands freely allow it and festivals overseas typically allow individual artists to dictate whether there's a particular policy in place for their performance. Last year at Rothbury Festival in the States I was amazed at some of the insane recording setups some of the Deadheads had with them. And at the same time when Bob Dylan played the next day after The Dead, security enforced his blanket ban on photos/video/etc.

The wealth of concert footage on Youtube is surely enough justification for it... I mean there's a lot of crap on there, but there's a whole lot of really special moments of live music captured and archived for all to see.


izzy965 wrote:
look at hendrix live shows he let ppl rock on up with their tape machines and record.

The man was evidently quite a proponent of bootlegging: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtcAwzBr0c8

(might be hard to make out but that's Hendrix in the front row of a Buddy Guy show with a tape recorder)


Couldn't agree more. Some of my US taping friends pull of INCREDIBLE recordings, simply because they are allowed to bring in high quality gear and stands. They don't interrupt anyone's enjoyment (they generally set up a mic stand near the soundboard, which is out of the way of fans) and they capture incredible , true to life recordings of a show - forever giving people a memory of a fine performance, funny moment, great solo, etc.
mgwfall
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2010 8:53:58 PM
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I'm one of those people that like to take a couple of souvenir videos (with a camera not a mobile phone) at gigs. And yes, many of them I do upload on youtube. I started doing that when I realised the vids I had were better than much of the stuff on youtube & as I don't audio record shows but get soooo much music from those that do & share on sites like dimeadozen, traders den, hungercity, zomb & dreamingtree (for my dmb fix), it was my way of giving back a little.

I do try & be unobtrusive. The screen brightness is turned down, I rarely hold the camera up high, it's usually in front of me. I wish the cameras, instead of that high angle setting, had a low angle setting. Also I'm quite short, so even for those times I hold the camera a little higher, you're probably still seeing more of the stage standing behind me than if someone else was there.

And for those who argue, you are missing the concert because you are filming, I'm not looking at the concert through the screen, I'm looking at the stage, occ glancing at the screen to see if the vague (I wear glasses for reading but not for concerts) brighter guitar shape (usually videoing guitar players) still seems centred.

I have some bootleg audience shot dvds of some artists that I think are far better than some of the pro shot dvds I have (2 that come to mind are 1 of Michael Hedges & a couple of Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds). The trend in pro shot dvds seems to be to pay the director per camera angle changes/minute. And even more annoying as someone who likes to watch the guitar playing, the close up head shots. You hear some amazing guitar riff happening & all you can see is the guitarist's facial expression.

I've also had artists send me messages of thanks for posting vids of them on youtube.

And what about people who wear caps or tall or wide brimmed hats under cover. People with big hair that tie it up above their head. People who can't listen to slow songs without needing to add percussion. The lone clapper standing next to you, or the one doing the crowd karaoke thing so loud you can only here them, & then of course there are the talkers. Sometimes I think they truly believe only the person they are talking to can hear them. Each to their own, but maybe some worse things than videoing.

However, I did go to both Wilco's Sydney shows this year where all cameras were forbidden.....& it was good.
shadowfax1007
Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:46:54 AM
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Any admins able to share any insights onto whether the festival is going to be more audio taper friendly this year?
I know at least 3 guys who are wanting to record, and bands who have given open permission, but they can't record unless the festival agrees.
Think of it as documenting or archiving the festival, no money is made from it. The recordings arent sold, bands/the festival/promoters don't lose profits. Whats the harm?
waffles
Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:42:35 PM
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i have to say i value MGWFALL and ZYFERT for their contribution to my real player library. these are clips from youtube that i then download through realplayer. i have some great memories from bluesfest,plus several clips from other concerts, some are 1 offs-like clips of robert randolph playing with dave matthews etc. also some old clips from howling wolf,sister rosetta tharpe etc.
the better the clips,the better the memories. so if youre near someone filming,dont talk over the top,just enjoy the music.

I don't want to hang up my rock n roll shoes
I get a good time feeling every time I hear those blues.
shadowfax1007
Posted: Saturday, March 19, 2011 6:37:49 PM
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Any word on the taping policy this year?
Or details for someone I can discuss it with?
mpember
Posted: Saturday, March 19, 2011 7:26:13 PM

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shadowfax1007 wrote:
Any word on the taping policy this year?
Or details for someone I can discuss it with?


http://www.showticksecure.com/bluesfest/VNCms/_uploads/FCKeditor/file/pdfs/Bluesfest_Terms_and_Conditions_2011.pdf wrote:
Audio and Visual
17. Audio or visual recordings of the Event are prohibited. Still cameras (not professional) are permitted but images may only be used for private purposes and not public display.


Doesn't leave much room for discussion.

Perhaps bands who permit their shows to be recorded could request access to recordings of their shows from the festival organisers. That would remove the ambiguity of having members of the public promising that they only shows they will be recordings are those of bands who permit it.

There are even some companies who specialise in making live recordings available for purchase (either on the night or via download). This would allow for an additional income stream while giving fans access to a product that may be of a higher quality than bootleg recordings made with hidden mics.
peggysav83
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 7:42:55 PM
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A festival with no mobiles is never going to happen. And I'm glad. Yes there are some dickheads out there (probably more than some) but since my sister and I want to see different things, our mobiles will be our best and easiest way to keep uP with each other

Love & Gravy xo
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